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Stephen Rowe: Did you know that even in these chaotic times, most Americans still feel, quote, very proud and, quote, very grateful to be an American, and that a majority, 60%, still view America as the land of opportunity? But about that same number think that our freedoms are at risk and we could lose them if we are not careful.

All this data comes from the Cato Institute’s latest survey asking people how they define being an American, the state of our democracy, and what issues are important to them. It’s a wide-ranging and insightful survey, and today its designer, Cato’s Vice President and Director of Polling, Emily Ekins, joins us to discuss what Americans have to say.

I’m Stephen Rowe, Program Director of Cato Courses, and this is the Cato Podcast. Emily, how’s it going today?

Emily Ekins: Great, great to be with you, Stephen.

Stephen Rowe: It’s great to be with you too, and so this is a fantastic poll, and there’s a lot of things coming out of this. What are some of the most noteworthy findings from this year’s survey? Any notable changes since last year?

Emily Ekins: Well, I have to say, the finding that really jumped out at me was, as you know, we’re not just celebrating the 4th of July this year. We’re celebrating America’s 250th. It’s been 250 years since the birth of our nation, and we asked people, do they know what America’s 250th is commemorating? And we found that nearly half said they don’t know what we’re celebrating, and among Generation Z, so these are Americans, 18 to 30 about that age group, 61% said they have no idea what we’re celebrating this year, and that really stood out to me because I think this is an opportunity for us as a nation to reflect on the founding principles and ideals of this country and to think about, are we maintaining those? Are we striving towards those? Are we moving away from them? But it’s hard to have that conversation if many of us don’t even know what we’re celebrating.

Stephen Rowe: That’s exactly right. I thought I was the crazy nerd in the room when I’m like, do you guys know what the semi-quincentennial is? But even if you say 250, people don’t know what that is counting from. That’s a wild thing and a great discovery from this poll, and there’s a lot of really important things under kind of how Americans see the United States, and in the poll I saw that about 58% of people are proud to be an American, 21% are somewhat, and we’re seeing some of the good stats about being grateful and if we’re the land of opportunity. What kind of stuck out to you as you think about this poll and people thinking if they’re proud to be an American, if they see this country as the land of opportunity?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, so I think it’s good to kind of parse out there is some civic ignorance that is worrisome, but aside from that, Americans really are attached to the country. They love America. We found overwhelming majorities. They say they’re grateful to be Americans, that they’re proud to be Americans, that they have positive, favorable feelings towards the American founding, and they also believe in the opportunity of this country.

Nearly two-thirds say America is the land of opportunity, and when we asked about them specifically, not just more generally, nearly three-fourths believe the American dream is achievable for them personally. So you really can see that Americans really do have a strong attachment to the country, and despite a lot of the negative press and negative headlines, for the most part, Americans like America.

Stephen Rowe: That’s really good to hear. I love America, and it’s so great to hear most people do still. This is a fantastic country and something truly special. I’ve heard it said before that this is the greatest country in the history of the world, and that’s kind of always stuck out with me as I’ve looked at, you know, our special founding and then, of course, where we are today, 250 years later. And one of the things you mentioned is that one of the most popular answers is being proud, and I think one of those tenets is freedom of speech, but what other rights and freedoms do Americans consider as valuable today?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, so you’re right, Stephen. Freedom of speech was the right, was the freedom that most Americans identified as being really important to them personally, but other top, you know, rights and freedoms included the right to vote, equal protection of the law, freedom of religion, and right to due process.

Now, of course, Americans value all of their freedoms. It’s not fair to, like, make people choose, but it is helpful to kind of get a sense of what people are thinking about, and truly, freedom of speech, that was the issue that people felt was most important to them personally. They also thought it was the freedom most at risk, so that really is on a lot of people’s minds today.

Stephen Rowe: Makes total sense, total sense, and yes, a lot of amazing rights. The one thing that sticks out, of course, we’re celebrating the 250th, the Declaration of Independence, and it starts something along the lines of “when in the course of human events,” and what they were trying to nail down was the role of government, and your survey dives directly into that, and I’m curious, from these results, what do Americans see as the role of government?

Emily Ekins: Right, well, we ask people directly, you know, what is the purpose of government? And, you know, we gave them two primary options. One is, is the main purpose of government to protect people’s rights and freedoms. About a third of Americans, 36%, selected that.

The other option we gave them was the main purpose of government is to solve major social and economic problems, or both equally. And basically, 53% said it was either both equally, or they wanted the government to solve social and economic problems.

And just kind of a fun little exercise we did is we plugged this question into several large-language models—Grok, ChatGPT, Claude—and asked it to answer…

Stephen Rowe: Oh, interesting.

Emily Ekins: Yeah, on the basis of the writings of the founders, how would most of the founders have answered this question? What did they think was the purpose of government? And all of the LLMs gave the exact same answer, and one of them was even clear. It says, “this isn’t even a tough question. It’s very clear. The founders of our country said the main purpose of government is to protect people’s rights and freedoms.”

Stephen Rowe: Yes.

Emily Ekins: So it’s kind of ironic because our survey found that 57% of Americans worry the country has drifted away from the founding principles and founding ideals. And the answer is, well, yes. This question actually shows how much people have shifted from what our founders had envisioned. People want the government to try to solve a lot more problems than the founders thought the government could realistically do well.

Stephen Rowe: Completely get that, and that’s a really, really insightful finding. One of the things, as you mentioned, our founders that I think they did with the Constitution and when they tried to put together this crazy experiment, the crazy American experiment, if you will, is allow for change and modifications over time. And 250 years later, there have been many amendments to the Constitution, but your survey did dive into this question as well. And when asked if they could change something in our Constitution, what do Americans think we should amend and what does that say about their priorities?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, I’m so glad you asked. So in the survey we asked people… I want to back up for just a second. Most people feel like the Constitution today is sound and does not need to be changed. But there’s a sizable group, about a third, who feel like that the Constitution should be rewritten. And of course there’s people in the middle that would say, well, it’s basically sound, but I would want some minor tweaks, like a balanced budget amendment or some sort of limit here on campaign spending or things like that.

So we opened it up to the survey respondents and asked if they would support or oppose a variety of constitutional amendment proposals. And what you’ll find is that majorities of Americans support constitutional amendments that both sides of political insiders would reject—Democratic political insiders and Republican political insiders. So let’s give you some examples.

A strong majority of Americans, 66%, support an amendment requiring voter ID to vote in elections. 64% support making English the official national language. These are things that Democratic insiders tend to oppose.

On the other side, 73% of Americans support an amendment guaranteeing a right to healthcare. 60% said guaranteeing a right to free college. So those are things that Republican insiders would oppose.

So we were able to show majority support for a wide variety of ideas, whether it’s guaranteeing healthcare, free college, limiting political campaigns. We even found majority support for banning hate speech and a majority support for flag burning, which is kind of funny, given that most people were worried about their freedom of speech and protecting that.

But it shows that if we were actually to open up the Constitution, what if we started from scratch and wrote a new one? There would be some changes that would surprise both sides of the political aisle.

Stephen Rowe: Let’s dive into current government and then the state of democracy. It looks like there are some pretty interesting numbers around how President Donald Trump is handling his job as president. What do you think there?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, well, our survey is consistent with others and what they have found, which is in our survey, 47% disapprove of President Trump’s performance and 41% approve and 11% don’t know either way. So that’s pretty consistent with what other polls have found. He’s kind of unique in that he’s kind of always hovered around there, even kind of at the beginning of his presidency.

But just because people have negative views of the president doesn’t mean they aren’t supportive. So I think that that’s actually a really good piece here of the puzzle, which is people can disagree with partisan leaders, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they turn against the country as a whole. And I think that that’s very important.

But to your other point about the state of our democracy, people are concerned. In particular, corruption was one of the number one things that they identified as being a threat to our democracy. And nearly two-thirds think that there is, you know, a fair amount of corruption in our own government. And I think that that was really shocking because I think a lot of us as Americans would like to hope that, you know, corruption is not a big part of the way our government operates. That’s not what we have idealized for our country.

Stephen Rowe: Very much so. And that’s a shocking finding to see and to identify in this poll. The other thing here too that I want to just pull on for a second in terms of a thread is how people agree or disagree with if the president should have to obey Supreme Court rulings. Our founders had three branches of government, the Supreme Court, the judiciary, being one of the most important for sure.

And we saw some stats showing that even when the president believes the court is wrong, if people believe the president should have to obey those Supreme Court rulings. And it looks like about 46% of people strongly agree, 26% of people somewhat agree. And so we’re seeing a majority towards the president should have to obey Supreme Court rulings. Did that one stick out to you?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, I’m really glad that you’re bringing this up because I kind of want to zoom out for a moment because we were talking earlier about how Americans’ view of what the purpose of government has changed over time. And for many of us, that is concerning. But there’s actually a silver lining too that we found in the poll is that Americans really do consistently across many different questions that we ask support constitutional limits on governmental power.

And they support the idea of dividing that power among different parts of the government so that not just one entity, say like the president, gets to make all the decisions. So yes, you’re absolutely right. We found that 72% agreed that if the president and the Supreme Court disagree about something, that the president has to obey the Supreme Court. They have final say, even when the president believes the court is wrong.

And we found that in a couple of different areas. 55%, a majority, said the Constitution should place firm limits on what government can do, even if that makes it harder to solve problems. 61% said that it’s better when political power is divided among different branches. Many people are worried that Congress has given too much power to the presidency and federal agencies. So these are things that you’ll hear a lot of political insiders in D.C. talk about, things that we’re worried about. Most Americans also recognize those problems.

Stephen Rowe: That’s good to hear. And also great to bring in the third branch of government, Congress. That’s very fascinating. The other thing that I think we should explore that this poll directly nails on the head is younger generations. And there’s a lot of talk about the youth these days—Generation Z, Generation Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, whatever they’re going to be called. But it seems to me that the younger people are getting, and according to these polls, we’re seeing that they favor socialism more than capitalism. Have you found this to be a trend in your survey?

Emily Ekins: Yes. Yes, it is a trend, not just in our poll, but in other polls as well. I’ve looked at this question over a number of years. The question that remains for me is, is this something that young people change their minds over time? Is this something that all young people kind of are drawn to socialism over capitalism when they’re young, but as they get older and take on more responsibilities and learn that there are opportunities for them in this country, that they change their minds? Or is there actually a permanent shift among the nation’s youth?

We’ve seen candidates that have been using the label of democratic socialist winning across the country in Democratic primaries. And so that has a lot of people wondering, is this time… is it different?

Stephen Rowe: That’s a really, really important point that you brought up there, and that’s what I wanted to focus on, too, for just a moment, is that socialism aspect. I mean, we’re seeing this across the country, but most notably in New York City, we had Claire Valdez and Daria Lisa Chevalier winning congressional primaries. I mean, people are actively running for office these days as a DSA member, a Democratic Socialist of America.

And what you pointed out there was very interesting. 37% of people supporting it, 37% of people opposing it. Is that typically what you’re seeing in your trends with surveys? And what are your thoughts generally about socialism and its picking up of pace seemingly in the electoral process?

Emily Ekins: Well, I’m glad you brought that up because our survey also asks specifically about the label those candidates have been using, which is democratic socialist. We ask people, are you more likely to vote for a candidate who identifies or describes themselves as a democratic socialist or less likely? And it was actually evenly divided. 39% said more likely, 40% said less likely, and the 22% in the middle were like, it doesn’t make any difference either way.

And so what’s going on there? I think there’s two things. I think that when people think of the word socialism, they’re often thinking about the affordability crisis. Why can’t they afford a house? Why is everything so expensive? Why can’t they get ahead economically? Many candidates are using socialism as a vehicle to claim that socialism will deliver what people want—a more affordable life that they can thrive in.

Unfortunately, we actually have some data on this. We have many, many experiments throughout the whole world that have tried different types of socialism to varying degrees with all the same types of results, just depending on the degree to which they were implemented: long wait times, shortages, low-quality goods, less access, and in the worst… obviously the worst cases, it’s horribly authoritarian. It takes away your rights and freedoms.

People worry about their freedom of speech. I mean, good luck with a socialist regime being able to speak your mind. So what I think is happening is that people are facing an affordability crisis. Candidates are offering them socialism as a solution. Unfortunately, socialism will not deliver what Americans are looking for.

Stephen Rowe: That’s exactly right. And is it different? But there’s some good news here, and then let’s talk about the socialism part as well. But on the capitalism, it does seem… capitalism’s side of things, it seems like there are strong levels of support for capitalism generally among the American populace. I’m seeing 25% seeing it very favorable, 26% saying somewhat favorable. What’s your take here on how capitalism is standing the test of time as these Americans are answering survey questions?

Emily Ekins: Yeah, well, capitalism is always… just as a word, has not fared as well in surveys as the words “free market” or “free enterprise.” Same idea, but people view it very differently. I think some people view the word capitalism as concentrations of power or unfair concentrations of wealth and power, whereas free markets and free enterprise mean the things that we love about having a wide variety of access to high-quality, inexpensive goods and services that everybody enjoys.

We saw during the World Cup a lot of our European friends coming to America and just astounded by the wide variety and quantity of items on the shelves—ranch dressing and other things like that. That’s what capitalism brings for us, but a lot of people associate capitalism with just these negative things. But if you say free markets or free enterprise, you’ve got two-thirds, three-fourths having positive views of it.

But looking at this poll particularly, 52% say they have a favorable view of capitalism and far fewer, 37%, have a favorable view of socialism. So you think, okay, people put capitalism ahead of socialism.

But if you look at just socialism, as many people like it as dislike it. 37% favor, 37% oppose, and that’s really striking. How do we get to a point where so many Americans don’t associate socialism with long wait times, low-quality goods, and not being able to access the things that they need? Socialism fails to deliver what people want. How did we shift away from the public understanding what socialism truly means?

Stephen Rowe: That’s exactly right, and I’m glad you brought those points up. Now, let’s think about the future. So we’ve done 250 years and hopefully we’ll do 250 more years into the future. One of the great promises of America is that we leave our country better than we found it, and the next generation certainly has some tasks ahead of them, but what a time to raise dragons—in a time of dragon slayers, in a time of dragons. And so let’s talk about where we’re heading, and as it relates to this poll, where are we heading as a country, and what do Americans think we need to succeed?

Emily Ekins: Right, let’s parse that into two pieces. First, Americans are worried. People are worried that we could lose our rights and freedoms. We found 60% felt that our rights and freedoms in this country are at risk and could be lost if we’re not careful and vigilant, and then we took it a step further. We asked, how worried are you that the United States will stop being a free country in the next 50 years? A majority, 56% of Americans, said they were worried about that being a reality.

So I think that people… what we’ve been able to see in this data so far is that people are attached to the United States. They are proud to be Americans. They believe it’s a land of opportunity. They worry we’ve drifted from our founding principles, and they’re worried that that could have very dire consequences—that we could lose our rights and freedoms.

And then Stephen, to your second question about what would help America succeed, what would help us to continue on in the next 50 years? We actually asked Americans what they thought. And one of the most important issues that they identified was less corruption and special interest influence.

And if you kind of break that down for a moment and think, you know, what is corruption? It’s using government for your own personal gain. It’s abusing your power, abusing… concentrating power in the wrong places. And people recognize that that is happening. And people also recognize that if we want to continue our rights and freedoms, we’re going to have to curb that. And we’re going to have to support more limits on the power of government—constitutional limits. And I think people understand that.

They also identified other things that matter too. They want to lower the cost of living, which we know free markets actually are the best way to deliver that. They also identified having better political leaders, political leaders that try to pursue being ethical and that make that a priority. And then the other two issues that were identified were having a stronger economy and then more respect for the Constitution.

So I really do think our survey revealed Americans recognize the drift of kind of how our government has shifted away from what the founders had envisioned and what has enabled our country to be… to continually strive to pursue those ideals and to be a prosperous country. And they also recognize what changes we have to make to get on a better course to preserve those rights and freedoms.

Stephen Rowe: Makes total sense. And really appreciate your answer there. So I’ve got one more question for you. And it’s a little bit of hope. I’m looking at one of the questions you asked. “Do you believe America’s best days are behind it or ahead of it?” It looks like the answers say 35% say behind—over a third. But 41% of people who took this survey still believe America’s best days are ahead. What’s your take on that question in particular? And what do you think?

Emily Ekins: Right. So this question I think is really measuring how optimistic are you about the future or pessimistic, you know, is someone about the future. And the way I would describe this is while it’s not a majority, a plurality—meaning more people than not—said that the best days of the country are ahead of it. And then there was a quarter that said that they just don’t know. They don’t know which direction they’re heading. But honestly, I bet you deep down they have a gut instinct, and I wish we could have kind of gotten that from them.

But I think what this data is pointing to is that on average, Americans remain optimistic, but with some reservations. You know, they are worried like, are we on the right path? Will we be able to sustain ourselves on the right path?

But I think most people are optimistic, but certain groups are more pessimistic than others. So… and some of this is not totally surprising. We have a Republican president and so you’ve got a plurality of Democrats who feel like the best days are behind it, whereas a majority of Republicans say the best days are ahead of it. So some of that’s just partisanship. We see that with the economy. When there’s a Democratic president, Republicans think the economy is bad. When it’s a Republican president, Democrats think the economy is bad. So some of it’s just partisanship.

But some of it’s deeper. And where I thought it was deeper is if you looked by age. Among young people, among Generation Z, people under 30, a plurality of them felt that the best days of the country are behind us, not ahead of us. And it was actually older Americans who felt like the best days were ahead of us.

And I think that’s actually another crucial part of this story of what we’re seeing in some of these Democratic primaries—about why these candidates with Democratic socialist labels are doing so well is that young people are pessimistic. They are not confident. They’re not certain of their own futures. They don’t know if they’re going to be able to thrive in our country. And this data is kind of helping us understand why.

Stephen Rowe: Emily, I want you to close us out here about the state of America and a libertarian take about the future of our country. What are your last words to our viewers here?

Emily Ekins: Americans still revere the founding of our country and our founding principles and ideals, but many are worried that we’re drifting away from these principles. Our survey today shows that civic ignorance is a real problem. And Americans also worry that corruption and abuse of power and concentrated power… that all of these are threats to us preserving freedom.

But Americans also value constitutional limits on government power. And America’s 250th this year gives us an opportunity to rebuild civic knowledge and constitutional commitment.

We at the Cato Institute go back to the American founding, its principles, the Declaration of Independence, and we take these documents and ideals seriously. And they serve as the basis for what we want the role of government to be because that’s what we believe is responsible for the expansion of liberty and prosperity for all Americans. And the more people become more aware of the founding, this helps us achieve a freer, more prosperous country in the future.

Stephen Rowe: Completely. And Emily, thank you so much for your time today. I think this was a very fascinating survey. It’s available to viewers and listeners of the show by going to Cato​.org. And go ahead and take a look at this survey because we had not enough time to talk about everything, but there’s some incredible findings here in the survey. And also in that, a libertarian future and viewpoint is something that can potentially win with the masses. We’ve talked about free markets and things of that nature in terms of wording really resonating with the masses. We’ve talked about free markets and things of that nature in terms of wording really resonating with people. So, go to Cato​.org and check out the survey. Emily, thanks again. And to our listeners, we will see you next time.