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Multimedia 

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Power Problems • November 26, 2019 

# Irregular Channels: Unpacking the Ukraine Affair 

Jim Goldgeier, former dean of the School of International Service at American University and resident scholar at the Brookings Institution, joins Trevor Thrall and guest host John Glaser to discuss President Trump’s use of irregular channels of foreign policy making in Ukraine.

- [Jim Goldgeier Bio](https://www.brookings.edu/experts/james-goldgeier/)
- Goldgeier and Saunders, “[How much have Trump’s dealings with Ukraine deviated from the norm](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/11/01/how-much-have-trumps-dealings-with-ukraine-deviated-from-the-presidential-norm/)?” *Washington Post*
- Mitchell Orenstein, “[Welcome to the United States of Ukraine](https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/10/25/trump-ukraine-united-states-politics/),” *Foreign Policy*

[![Creative Commons License](/build/cato_2020/images/creative-commons.svg)](http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/) 
This work is licensed under a [Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License](https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/). 

##### Featuring 

[![Media Name: thrall-cropped.jpg](/sites/cato.org/files/styles/author_picture/public/authors/crops/thrall-cropped.jpg?itok=z4kJ8rE_)](/people/trevor-thrall) 

##### [A. Trevor Thrall](/people/trevor-thrall)

Former Senior Fellow, Defense and Foreign Policy Department, Cato Institute

[ 

](http://www.twitter.com/trevor_thrall) 

![John Glaser](/sites/cato.org/files/styles/author_picture/public/2021-01/John%20Glaser.jpg?itok=-uvxR8zG) 

##### John Glaser 

Host, Power Problems Podcast

[ 

](https://twitter.com/jwcglaser) 

![Jim Goldgeier profile picture](/sites/cato.org/files/styles/author_picture/public/2023-04/Jim-Goldgeier.jpeg?itok=Es-2S4Gz) 

##### Jim Goldgeier 

Visiting Fellow, Brookings Institution

[ 

](https://twitter.com/JimGoldgeier)